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Excerpted from
Tricyle Magazine.
Ordained at age twelve
in Kandy, Sri Lanka, the Venerable Henepola Gunaratana
trained as a novice for eight years and as a bhikkhu
(monk) for seven years before leaving Sri Lanka in 1954
to work with untouchables in India. In 1968 he came to
the United States and became the Honorary General
Secretary of the Buddhist Vihara Society, an urban
monastery in Washington, D.C., while earning a Ph.D in
Philosophy from The American University, where he later
served as the Buddhist chaplain. He has been teaching
Buddhism throughout the world for over forty years. His
books include Mindfulness in Plain English from
Wisdom Publications. In 1988, Bhante Gunaratana became
President of the
Bhavana Society in High View, West
Virginia, a center to promote meditation and the
monastic life. This interview was conducted for
Tricycle by Helen Tworkov at the Bhavana Society
last November (1994). Bhante is a Pali word
equivalent to Reverend in English.
Tricycle:
Nowadays, in the West,
many people find that hierarchical distinction between
the monastics and the laity outdated, old fashioned;
something that developed in Asia but that has no place
in the West.
Bhante Gunaratana:
The monastic path
is better, not in a political sense or as a power
structure, but better for spiritual growth. Monasticism
nourishes, supports a frame of mind for practice. If you
want to live in a non-monastic community, it cannot be
called monastic, and you cannot expect to do the
practice in the best way. Life today has so many
commitments, and people get into very difficult
situations, emotionally and otherwise. Everyone has so
many things to do. You have to have a space to grow, to
improve your spiritual practice. That is why the Buddha
said, "Have few duties." When you have few duties, you
have time to practice, you are not all the time tense,
uptight, and nervous, worrying and destroying your
health.
Tricycle:
Are there ways of
encouraging a monastic life in modern times?
Bhante Gunaratana:
To update the
monastic tradition, people don't have to be totally cut
off from their societies. Even in monastic lives, there
are certain things that people can do in order to make
it more lively. In early days, monastic life seems to
have been very grueling, very dark. The monks sat under
trees or in caves and meditated all the time. One of the
accusations that we get here from some very strict
monastics is that we are too relaxed. Not that we have
lost sight of monasticism, but that we try to update it
by making certain adjustments.
Tricycle:
Such as?
Bhante Gunaratana:
We drive if
necessary. Sometimes we go shopping if there is nobody
else to go. And we have monks and nuns living in the
same place. As long as we maintain our discipline and
rules, these adjustments are possible. Sometimes people
say, all religious principles, not only monastic
principles, are out of date.. Morality is no longer an
important issue in some places, some societies, because
people do not want to discipline themselves. They do not
want to be responsible, honest, sincere. But honesty,
sincerity, responsibility never become out of date. We
want to preserve the essence. Compromise doesn't mean to
throw the baby out with the bath water. Every rule
prescribed by the Buddha is for our own benefit. Every
precept we observe is in order to cleanse the mind.
Without mental purification, we can never gain
concentration, insight, wisdom, and will never be able
to remove psychic irritations.
Tricycle:
In the West there is a
pervasive psychological perspective which suggests that
celibacy is unhealthy and therefore that monasticism
attracts not people inspired by a spiritual quest, but
those with sexual problems.
Bhante Gunaratana:
At the same
time, we can see that people who are obsessed with
sex are always in trouble. Everywhere. Getting involved
in all these natural urges and giving in to them is also
not healthy. Somebody who very carefully, mindfully
trains himself to restrain himself, too discipline
himself, can live a very healthy life. People try to
justify greed, hatred, and delusion. Many people become
gullible.
Tricycle:
Gullible?
Bhante Gunaratana:
You know,
"gullible" is a very beautiful Pali word. In Pali, it is
called galibaliso. Gali means swallow,
baliso means bait. When you have the attitude that
you don't have too discipline yourself, that whenever
you feel a sex urge, you can go and have sex with
anybody you like; that when you get angry, you
can express it any way you want, and even use violence
if you like. These kinds of attitudes lead society
downhill. I feel that is what is happening. Trying to
introduce discipline, sincerity, honesty, religious
practices, and so forth, that kind of work has become
like trying to stop a stream with a piece of paper. Our
mind is like liquid. Liquid always goes down, it never
goes up by itself by its own force. Similarly, the mind
always goes to the wrong thing. This is why the Buddha
said the real practice of dhamma is like "going
upstream." Not an easy job.
Tricycle:
Is that just
as true in or out of the monastery?
Bhante Gunaratana:
Yes, but the sole
purpose of monasticism is too give a chance to people to
discipline themselves. It is like a laboratory. We don't
want every nook and corner to have laboratories, but
there have to be some laboratories, some sort
controlled atmosphere for a person to grow in if that
person really wants to be disciplined for the sake of
his or her own inner peace. America is still like a
teenager, a juvenile, just trying to grow, and that
spiritually immature state has been taken as a standard
for the whole world to follow. I don't think that is a
healthy way of thinking. Only when we attain our state
of responsibility and freedom are we all equal.
Tricycle:
We are not born
equal?
Bhante Gunaratana:
We are not born
equal, are not created equal. We are divided by kamma.
We are born different, and live different, and die
different, because of our different kamma. Kamma divides
us into high and low, rich and poor, intellectual and
non-intellectual, attractive and non-attractive,
skillful and non-skillful, and so forth. But when
somebody comes to the order of monks and nuns, they give
up their distinctions and become equal. When they attain
stages of enlightenment, they all are equal. There is no
difference in the attainment of enlightenment. When we
attain nibbana, we all are equal.
Tricycle:
The Theravada tradition
has a long history of inequality between the sexes, even
within the realm of spiritual understanding. In fact, it
is my understanding that women cannot attain full
ordination in your tradition.
Bhante Gunaratana:
That is an
adjustment that l would like to propose. We've had a
problem introducing fully ordained nuns into the order.
It has become a very big controversy because many women
would like to enter the Theravada nuns'
order and receive full ordination, but that has not been
possible so far.
Tricycle:
Where is the opposition
coming from to day?
Bhante Gunaratana:
From the
Theravada Buddhist school.
Tricycle:
Because of the
traditional ways?
Bhante Gunaratana:
Yes. Actually,
the tradition for fully ordained women once existed, but
disappeared.
Tricycle:
How are Theravada nuns
ordained now?
Bhante Gunaratana:
It is not a full
ordination, but a novice ordination. In a country like
the United States, where Buddhism is still new, full
ordination for women should be established.
Tricycle:
What do your brothers in
Sri Lanka think about your supporting this? Do they
think, "Oh, maybe he has just spent too much time in the
West'?
Bhante Gunaratana:
[laughing] Yes.
Yet in in one famous discourse, the Kalama Sutta,
the Buddha says, "Don't believe in tradition, don't
believe in mere hearsay. Don't accept anything because
things are in the scriptures. Don't accept anything
because the teacher appears to be a very honorable,
sincere person. Don't accept anything because it appeals
to intellect, to logic or philosophy. Don't accept
anything because you like it. Check with your own
experience, investigate, discuss, meditate upon, and
question. And then, if what you learned is good for
yourself, good for others, good for both, then accept
it. If it is not good for you, not good for others, not
good for both reject it." So the freedom of inquiry is
very strongly advocated by the Buddha. And, therefore,
using that information, I make these suggestions.
Tricycle:
I'm sure that many women
in the West and in Asia will be very appreciative of
this view. And yet, even in those societies that
sanction full ordination for women, the rules for women
are still twice as many as for men, and the women are
still considered inferior to the men. Even here, I have
observed that the men leave the meditation hall before
the women, and that they are served food first.
Bhante Gunaratana:
We don't have
fully ordained nuns. The women here are all novices. In
monastic hierarchy, whoever has stayed in the order the
longest is considered to be the senior-most person, and
that person leads the group. He goes first. He sits
first and so forth. The hierarchy is established only by
seniority.
Tricycle:
If full ordination of
nuns were reestablished, would you also support full
equality between men and women?
Bhante Gunaratana:
I support it. I support it. Fully ordained nuns should
be able to do the same things as fully ordained monks.
That's the kind of equality I support. The Buddha
introduced extra rules for women, because without giving
some concessions, without introducing some rules, there
would have been an enormous upheaval and opposition
coming from other monks as well as lay people. To
silence them, he introduced these regulations. But in
modern society these things can be modified.
Tricycle:
Can the changes you
recommend be adapted in Asia?
Bhante Gunaratana:
My hunch is that
in Asia full ordination will never happen because the
tradition, the habit, is so strong. The only possibility
exists in societies like this one, where Buddhism is
new. Once it is established here then perhaps slowly it
can be introduced to Asian Buddhist communities.
Tricycle:
What are the things that
you think should not be adjusted, that you think must
not change?
Bhante Gunaratana:
Dhamma can be
translated into simple, modern, language. But the
meaning should not be changed to suit people's
requirements. Some aspects of the rituals can change,
but for instance, wearing robes must not change. Even in
the time of the Buddha, civilian dress was quite
different from monks' robes. And it is the same today.
This robe protects us. As human beings we are not
perfect. And when we have the robe, it reminds us of our
place, and stops us from getting into wrong situations,
wrongdoing.
Tricycle:
Other Theravada
communities have altered certain traditions, such as
chanting only in Pali, or not eating after twelve noon;
why have you chosen to preserve these rituals?
Bhante Gunaratana:
If you do not
preserve the form of Theravada Buddhism, the original
form, eventually people won't even know what it is.
Tricycle:
What most distinguishes
the Theravada tradition from the other great vehicles of
Buddhism?
Bhante Gunaratana:
The Theravada
tradition tries to maintain the Buddhism present in the
Pali texts. It emphasizes morality, concentration, and
wisdom practice as close to the Buddha's own teaching as
possible without interpreting them, distorting them, or
translating them into different ideas. As Theravada
Buddhists, we are trying to preserve the Pali language
and use it in our dhamma sermons, in our daily
devotional services.
Tricycle:
And the benefit is
maintaining the language of the Buddha?
Bhante Gunaratana:
Yes. The benefit
is that when you have any doubt about the teaching, any
gray area, you can always go to the Pali. And always you
keep Pali as your reference language in order to clarify
certain dhamma terms. If you do not have that kind of
background, or that kind of reference, you have to rely
on translations. If the translator has made a mistake,
it is carried on generation after generation.
That is what has happened to some other branches of
Buddhism. Because they don't study the original
language, they have to read the third, fourth, fifth
interpretations, or translations, and sometimes they
lose track of the original teaching. Original teaching
is preserved in the Pali tradition. No question about
it.
Tricycle:
Many people feel that
the absence of the Bodhisattva Vow in Theravada, the
vow to save all sentient beings and to place others
before oneself diminishes the role of compassion that
we find in some of the other traditions. Can you address
that?
Bhante Gunaratana:
You know, while
we are trying to attain enlightenment, we must help
others. We cannot wait. Suppose we are going on a
journey, and somebody on the way needs some help. Food,
water, or somebody is sick and so forth. We cannot
simply say, ''Oh, I am going on a journey, you have to
wait until I finish the journey." You cannot say that.
You've got too help that person. That is your human,
moral obligation. That is what the Buddha did. He became
perfect by doing what he was supposed to do. He
practiced in human society, with other people. Teaching,
preaching, helping, serving, and doing everything that
he had to do to help the world. And that helping, that
practice, reached perfection. We don't have to wait
until we have attained enlightenment.
Tricycle:
Do you think that some Westerners misunderstand
Theravada Buddhism because of the absence of an actual
Bodhisattva Vow?
Bhante Gunaratana:
Exactly. Although
Theravada Buddhists don't have any special Bodhisattva
Vow, in practice it is almost impossible to ignore
helping others. And you know, this idea of helping
others is not only Buddhist. Is there anything Buddhist
in generosity? You don't even have to be a human being
to practice generosity. You might have seen animals
sharing their food with other animals. To make this kind
of distinction between Mahayana and Theravada is not a
very practical, realistic way of seeing things. The
challenge is making people understand the basic
teachings, like selflessness, soullessness, and
non-believing in a creator god. The first aspect,
impermanence, is really easy. If you read any book on
physics, chemistry, or science you will learn all about
impermanence. But selflessness and not believing in a
creator god, these two are extremely difficult to
teach.
Tricycle:
Can a society as a whole
become a little less egotistical, or is it only at
matter of individual practice?
Bhante Gunaratana:
It is individual
practice, actually. Even when the Buddha attained
enlightenment, greed, hatred, and delusion were not less
than they are today. His sole purpose in attaining
enlightenment was to serve the world. But as soon as he
attained enlightenment, he became so disappointed. He
thought, "How can l teach this dhamma to these people?
They are so full of ignorance, greed, hatred, jealousy,
fear, tension, worry, and lust, how can they understand
this?" But he started teaching. And he was never able
to eliminate all the suffering in the human world.
Never. He eliminated the suffering of certain people,
but compared to the number of people in the world, the
number of people he helped to attain enlightenment is
insignificant. Now, with more population, more desirous
things produced by technological advancement, more
things to promote your desire, promote your greed,
selfishness, fear, tension, worry, it is actually more
difficult to practice pure dhamma. And this is not just
the problem of the dhamma, the teaching of the Buddha.
It is the problem of all religions. Religious people are
trying as much they can in their own limited
capacities. At the same time, in the material world
other people are trying to promote their own
productions, increase people's greed. There are more
televisions, more computers, more this, more that. So
you have to compete with this.
Tricycle:
How can the dhamma best
be protected in this environment?
Bhante Gunaratana:
One who protects
the dhamma will be protected by the dhamma, just like
one who protects an umbrella will be protected by the
umbrella. To protect the dhamma, what should one do?
Each and every individual must practice it. To the
degree and extent that a person practices dhamma, to
that degree and extent that person gets protection from
the dhamma. We can never get protection from anything
else, no matter how much security, or insurance, or how
many secure locks we have,.. never.
Tricycle:
Do you have a particular
goal for yourself?
Bhante Gunaratana:
I say that
Buddhism is like a tree. A tree has its canopy, leaves,
flowers, you know, little branches, and the trunk, and
the bark, and softwood and hardwood, the roots, and so
forth. And we should want the hardwood, the pit of the
dhamma, just like wanting the pit of a tree. Everything
else can conceal the truth. There are so many things
around the true dhamma. And people can easily get
deluded, confused, misled by those very many, many
varieties of things. The Buddha said very clearly,
"Until artificial gold appears in the market, pure gold
shines. As soon as the artificial gold appears in the
market, nobody knows which is pure gold, and which is
artificial." So I want to show people this pure gold, so
that they cannot be deluded by everything that glitters.
That is my purpose.
Source: Vipassana Page
by Steve Russell,
http://rdz.acor.org/lists/vipassana//
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